Author Topic: Meditation & Mental Control  (Read 292 times)

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Offline calaquendi

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2010, 05:00:30 PM »
Very good post - well said Eon!
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline sassyfras

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 09:54:31 PM »
Becoming enlightened, or cosmically conscious, was a hot topic in the '60's, mostly fueled by LSD induced visions & revelations. When we realized that it was possible to experience such states of being while still in a physical body, we began to seek out ways of achieving this by other than chemical means. It seemed that some Eastern religions considered this state of enlightenment to be the greatest achievement possible....we read accounts of monks who isolated themselves in remote caves & meditated for years to reach enlightenment. Apparently this enlightenment required a lifetime (or several lifetimes!) of meditation as well as yoga & an extremely austere diet....a level of discipline & dedication not very attractive to most of us Western raised kids. So when the Beatles fucked off to the promised land (India), and met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.....who promised them full enlightenment after only 6 - 12 years of practicing his special brand of meditation called "Transcendental Meditation"....we flocked to his meditation initiations by the thousands. For $25.00 we were taken into a small room decorated with posters of Hindu Deities & flowers by an "Initiator" (someone who had taken a brief course in TM), who then whispered our very own personal mantra in our ears and taught us how to use it during our meditations. For children or for those with poorly developed nervous systems who were unable to sit still for 20 minutes, there were "walking mantras". All we had to do was meditate for 20 minutes in the morning & 20 minutes in the early evening, and in 6 - 12 years we would emerge as fully realized beings.

Looking back, I think that this TM phenomenon marked the first real philosophical differences among the hippies. Before Maharishi, we were kind of an amorphous glob of sex, drugs & rock'n roll~~~"if it feels good, do it"~~~but now we still had that group but also the meditators. The sex, drugs & rock'n roll bunch continued to pass around the blotters & joints at Be-Ins & concerts and remained stridently anti-establishment, while the meditators  decided to
"change the system from within", doing things like selling Amway out of their old VW vans & converting as many as possible to TM. ( I always get a grin on my face when I hear that old line of Leonard Cohens'," Well, they sentenced me to 20 years of boredom, trying to change the system from within."

A whole bunch of us were initiated into TM on Saltspring Island in 1969. I was in that group & meditated diligently for the next few months just as I had been taught, until I dropped some very pure acid one day and didn't come down for the next 6 months. I didn't meditate during that time but I didn't NOT meditate either.....I was in a state of constant meditation......every move I made was a meditation, and I clearly understood that meditation is is like a boat that you need to use in order to get across the ocean, but once you arrive you don't need it anymore. Sitting on the toilet, eating, dancing, making love...all of it was a meditation....my entire life had become a meditation. I had "arrived". Or so I believed...

During this time, the TM bunch were gearing up with ever more courses & seminars designed to speed up the the process of getting enlightened. These events were being held all over the world, and by now Maharishi was accepting American Express. These sessions were not cheap. I was becoming quite cynical about the whole movement, even writing a song about it......"Cosmic consciousness on credit, any way you can get it". I had an interesting conversation with an older East Indian man once who just laughed when I mentioned Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He said, " Mahesh is 10% yogi & 90% businessman. In India we have Maharishis who are 90% yogi & 10% businessman!". Many of us made pilgrimages to India. The pixie dust was falling off Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and the hunt for more "hardcore" or authentic gurus was on. Business was good. Since I felt that I had already arrived, I didn't join in this hunt. Everyone I saw or spoke with was my guru. I liked what Don Genaro (Journey to Ixtlan) said about some teachers "indulging in being teachers." Ha, yet I did just that with the smallish "following" I had attracted during this time as a "trip guide".... where I would take people to drop acid in the forests & mountains....teaching them about "woodland rushes", water nymphs and celestial navigation.

My "fall from grace" was inevitable though, since I had tried to sneak my ego along on this journey of sudden enlightenment. Such falls are incredibly painful, black & bleak.......the archetypal being "cast out from the kingdom of heaven". Those darn egos!!! One of my friends told me that there is no such thing as the ego and I said, " Yeah, but just try & tell IT that!"

Humbled, I went back to meditating once or twice a day, hoping that after 6 -12 years of this I'd get to be back in that awesome state. It seemed impossible, it seemed like the proverbial eye of the needle kinda thing. I was afraid that I'd blown the chance of a lifetime & maybe once cast out of the kingdom no return was possible. Well, that was nearly 40 years ago now.....& I've been blessed with several spontaneous "awakenings" over the years, though never for as long, or as powerful as those 6 months were. I honestly don't know whether or not my meditating had anything to do with those awakenings. These days I meditate simply because it helps center me, because it feels good. My meditations are not as "goal oriented" as they once were.

I think that for us Westerners, the traditional Eastern methods of attaining enlightenment are far too demanding & require too much discipline. We can't fit that into our busy lives very easily. I think that NLP & those Holosync type programs could be valuable for us. Anything that requires us to really pay attention to what our mental apparatus is doing can't be a bad thing, esp. if we combine it with some meditation also. A little hint, though....efforts to control or eliminate our thoughts rarely work....it's like the story of the guru who told his disciple that he would become enlightened as long as he didn't think about monkeys,lol. I find that it's of more value simply to learn to become a better observer.....to learn how to become more quiet. Recognition brings release. When we see things more clearly we are able to *respond* instead of our more usual robotic* reactions*.

Have any of you here ever read "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones"? Absolutely marvelous little book!




Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2010, 01:36:25 PM »
WOW Sassy, quite the post!

Your words brought back a lot of memories of the Era of Love  --  most of them good.  I was a TMer, too.  I'll tell you my secret mantra if you tell me yours.  (giggle)   ;D

We might laugh about TM now, but the repetition of any nonsensical syllables does have a positive effect in that it silences the chattering, ruminating voice in our heads.  The shortcoming is that continual repetition does not allow the blissful silence to stretch past the brief periods between repetitions.  When I have difficulty quieting my mind, I will often count my breaths to actively break the train(s) of thought.  Sometimes, when my mind is particularly noisy, I have to go from 1 to 3 over and over.

Yeah, I have a copy of Zen Flesh, Zen Bones around here.  Back a while, there was very little information on Taoism here in the West and I found Zen to be an excellent alternative since it is a combination of Taoism and Buddhism.  I'm a big fan of Buddhism in general.  Buddhism, in its original form, was not a religion but a body of techniques to understand reality directly.  The koans, though, are unique to Zen, AFAIK.

Let me know when you write your book, I want to be sure to get a copy!

Cal, thanks for your comment.  Just want you to know, I did meditate on what to say...   ;)

Peace, Love & Primal Awareness

Eon
To those who do not dwell in themselves,
the forms of things appear as they truly are.
--  Chuang Tzu  --

Offline sassyfras

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2010, 03:36:16 PM »
I'm glad my post brought back some good memories for you, Eon~~~it was without a doubt one of the most exciting & magical decades ever! I feel blessed to have been alive during that time. It's neat how many young people today are fascinated by the '60's....quite often at gatherings, a group of 20 somethings will flock over to some of us "old"hippies & pick our brains about our wild youth....lol.

So you're an old TM'er too, huh? Hey, I've never had a problem with the meditation itself at all...it's a very simple & effective technique and I loved the straightforward instructions, " Be where you are & meditate". I personally have found that basically mindless & repetitive actions are the best way to enter into a calm & clear state of being. Unfortunately our technology has robbed us of so many of these activities~~~little wonder that so many of us have difficulties in stopping the frenetic internal chatter. Consider for example the task of peeling 30 lbs. of potatoes, a common enough activity back in the day when large families actually cooked & ate together. I LOVE peeling potatoes! Once a person has mastered the peeling technique it is so effortless & automatic that the mind is free to roam where it will. The same can be said for a vast array of the so-called "menial" or "drudgery" types of jobs that are now done by machines instead of our hands. People engaged in doing this type of work enjoy almost total freedom of mind, unlike the vast majority of us whose work demands that we almost constantly pay attention and think about what we are doing. Our internal chatter is non-stop & it is little wonder that we are exhausted & stressed at the end of the day. Meditation & exercise are good ways to partake of a little of the mindless & repetitive activities we've been mostly disconnected from. The same technology which was supposed to free us of drudgery actually turned many into slaves who have trouble finding the time & space for uninterrupted mental freedom from it all.

Finally!!! I've met someone who has read "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones"....... I'm sure you've also read Robert Pirsig's "Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"? I enjoyed that one but I liked his book "Lila" even more. Now there's a book most people have never even heard about, let alone read. Definitely a worthwhile read. His concepts of energy..."dynamic" vs "static" energy is fascinating to me.

I always thought of Taoism as kind of the ultimate spiritual (non) path with the way it embraces paradox.....

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2010, 08:10:36 PM »
" Be where you are & meditate"

I'm sure you've also read Robert Pirsig's "Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"?

Anywhere sitting, standing, riding or driving is a good place to meditate, if you don't close your eyes.  I think meditation, and certainly general mental control, is a cumulative thing.  Meditating for 1 minute 240 times a day may not get one as deep as meditating for 4 hours straight, but my intuition says that there would definitely be benefit.  If I am ever able to sit for 4 hours straight, I will be sure to let you know...

I think us Westerners need something a bit more suited to our environment  --  like guerrilla meditation perhaps?    8)

Actually, I started Z&TAOMM but couldn't finish it.  Too much talk about fuel systems and parts to suit me  --  but I don't think I got past 100 pages.  Book hoarder that I am, I think it's still around, too.

ANYBODY  --  I have a huge library of sci-fi that I need to give away.  Interested?

Wishing Y'all Strong, Sound, Sane Energy!     ~et
To those who do not dwell in themselves,
the forms of things appear as they truly are.
--  Chuang Tzu  --

Offline goatboy

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2010, 04:34:05 AM »
Wow.. I enjoyed reading your post sassy!! Big LSD fan :)   And everyones concepts of meditation and confidence about it has got me intrigued.  I've always been interested in giving it a chance if the benefits are really there.  But it can take years to get the benefits??  I don't think I have that much patience sadly..

And eon I may be interested in some of those books.. I need some more good reading I think and finished my last 5 books I bought in like the month after my big flood.
Rise, Run, Feed, Ripen, Wound, Wither, Fall, Rise Again...

Offline calaquendi

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2010, 09:23:50 AM »
Yeah me too McKnight - I'm a huge DUNE fan read all of them...you don't have a coy of 'Ender's Game" do you?
" I am you and what I see is me..."

Offline riverhaven

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2010, 10:16:11 AM »
I have Ender's game and wouldn't part with it  LOL.... what an awesome book.... but suffered in the sequels.

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2010, 06:23:28 PM »
I have been discussing something on the vox list that seemed to fit well in this topic.  The highlights are mine.  ~et

PS  --  Oopsie, stuck this in the wrong topic at first.  Now I gots it right.  ~e


On 7/21/2010 3:54 PM, Matt S wrote:

Ken Wilber talks about states vs stages of spiritual/emotional/psychological evolution.  He says that anyone can experience a higher state during a peak experience but that a stage is a permanent attainment.  So for example you may be at one level of spiritual evolution and through some means (like ibogaine) you have a peak experience of a higher state.  But until you actually evolve to that level yourself and it becomes your stage of evolution, it will be a passing state and you will return to whatever stage you are at.  The idea is that it takes time, experience, effort, luck, or whatever it takes, to evolve through the various stages, but that you can have brief states where you experience those higher stages before you actually evolve to reside in them.  I think this is a pretty accurate explanation.  I had a very long term ibo glow after my last treatment dose but in time it faded as I went about the business of being me and living in the world.

Matt

robertj wrote:

Matt, I like what you and Mr. Wilber have to say about stages.  It has the ring of truth, IMHO.

 It doesn't preclude someone who is on the edge of a new stage being helped over that edge and staying there, does it?  (Settling in at some new higher stage as one drifts down from the heights.)  Some of the testimonials about staying clean for many years after ibo attest to that.

 After reading your excellent testimonial, it appears that you are one of those who made such a gain.

 It might be a tad inconvenient to go through the rest of one's life 'tripping yer brains out'.  So maybe it's just as well...

 ~robert

Hi Robert

I don't know for sure what it takes to realize higher stages.  But what Wilber says is that the more often you experience higher states, the easier it is to evolve to them as a permanent realization.  He also says that the average stage of the society you live in is important, surrounding yourself with people who are at a higher stage will make it easier for you to advance to that stage.  And he also says mediation is an almost guaranteed way to move up in stages.  So tripping your brains out is optional.  Actually I would say that psychedelics in general can be useful or an obstacle to spiritual advancement depending on how they are used, just like a hammer can be useful or a detriment to getting work done depending on how you use it.

His model has a number of stages which he originally based on the stages of spiral dynamics (with some modifications and a few higher stages added).  But his model lends itself well to being dumbed down which he himself will often do, so in its simplest form you can use the perennial philosophy and refer to the stages of Body, Mind, & Spirit.  The stages themselves are actually arbitrary and depend to a good degree on how you want to define them.  But for example you can see pretty clearly that someone like Nelson Mandela or the Dalai Lama are at a higher stage then say Fred Phelps, the preacher at Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka Kansas.

Matt
To those who do not dwell in themselves,
the forms of things appear as they truly are.
--  Chuang Tzu  --

Offline goatboy

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2010, 04:45:36 AM »
Fred phelps??  Really?  He's been far over the cuckoo's nest, and if he's a symbol of any of the stages that's sad I think. I would then think I'm many levels up on the stage than many and that's with no meditation to date... although a lot of insightful psychadelic experiences.  But then again I'm working on not comparing myself to others for I've always been a very competitive person (friendly though) and although it may have helped me improve some of my skills competing against those with higher skill sets mainly to improve my skill level and well anyone elses of that nature trying to improve and see what's possible...  But I don't take it all too serious.  I like the saying 'If you compare yourself to others, you may become vain and bitter; for ALWAYS there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.'... Just right on there I think
Rise, Run, Feed, Ripen, Wound, Wither, Fall, Rise Again...

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2010, 08:15:34 AM »
Hey there goatboy!

I have been considering how to respond to one of your earlier posts for a while now, and I think I am finally ready to do so.  I don't want to come off sounding like some holier than thou meditation zealot or anything like that.

"I've always been interested in giving it [meditation] a chance if the benefits are really there.  But it can take years to get the benefits??  I don't think I have that much patience sadly."

Well, there is scientific research and clinical evidence that there are definitely benefits, both physiological and psychological, to meditation.  Plus, there is a huge amount of anecdotal evidence that benefits do indeed exist.

It is definitely not true that it takes "years to get the benefits" for most people.  Just sitting down and meditating for 20 minutes will temporarily clear the mind and provide relief from stress.  While such daily benefits are slight and do not last long at first, they are cumulative.  IF one is sufficiently self-aware and watches closely for lasting, cumulative benefits, they can be seen in as little as 2 weeks.

As for patience, if it did take years to realize benefits, I seriously doubt if there would be many doing it.  Going for a year without any visible benefits would be way beyond my ability to be patient.  Hence, it is important to validate the benefits as they occur to keep one's resolve strong.

In my limited experience, there are two kinds of benefits that can be observed:  benefits relating to the reason (the purpose) for meditating and ancillary benefits.

Two of the reasons why I have recently been meditating are depression and anxiety.  I have definitely noticed a reduction in both.  I am not yet cured; I still get depressed pretty regularly as the day wears on and there are still things that I cannot deal with due to the levels of anxiety that I experience when I try.  BUT, I have definitely seen and felt improvement in just a couple of weeks of dedicated practice.

We all know, though seldom admit it, that things do not make us depressed, things do not make us anxious.  We make ourselves depressed and anxious.  By controlling our thoughts and emotions, we can learn to break the habits of being depressed or anxious.

For those with other inappropriate thoughts/feelings such as anger, jealousy, self-loathing, etc., being able to stop those thoughts and feelings through personal development is both possible and far superior to drugs or other treatments, IMHO.  There have been a number of studies showing that meditation even helps ADD/ADHD.

As for 'ancillary' benefits, when one starts getting into deeper states during meditation, intuitive flashes will usually start to occur.  These may be verbally or visually orientated or possibly better described as 'feelings'.  It is sometimes possible to 'track the intuitions down' and verify if they are correct or not.

For example, getting the image during meditation of one's favorite ball point pen being under the couch can be validated by going and looking under the couch.  There is one thing like this that I experienced while meditating years ago that still amazes me.

Guess that's plenty for now...

Peace, Love & Escape from the Conditioned Mind!

Eon
To those who do not dwell in themselves,
the forms of things appear as they truly are.
--  Chuang Tzu  --

Offline riverhaven

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2010, 01:32:07 PM »
Note to the wary.  I am currently being worked up for seizures-- and when I googled what the heck can cause seizures- thinking maybe something I am on could be it-- and I find out that things like holosync, hemisync any binaural frequency thing can induce seizures in susceptible people.  If you have any tendency or ever had a seizure-- I would avoid those things like the plague.  One night we woke up covered in my poop as I lost bowel control and I was totally out of it-- like I'd had a seizure AND I was listening to holosync.  I never would have know this had I not done my google!!!  Anyway, thought I'd share this.  Also, Tia--I know you use holosync to help your patients calm down before dosing- make sure you get a seizure history.   

Offline Eon T McKnight

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2010, 03:06:31 PM »
Woof!

To those who do not dwell in themselves,
the forms of things appear as they truly are.
--  Chuang Tzu  --

Offline sassyfras

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2010, 04:36:45 PM »
 ;D ROTFLMAO! Thanks Eon, you made my day!

Offline Tia Serendipia

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Re: Meditation & Mental Control
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2010, 04:47:08 PM »
@ sassy, magnificent post.
I was born in the late 60's and remember a book my mom gave me, "TA for Tots". Had ways to talk about feelings, like the 'warm fuzzies' and the 'cold pricklies'. :) I feel like I 'know' you a lot better through that post. An honore.
:)

@river: I have a pretty extensive application process, including asking for seizure hx. Thank you for heads up on hemisync, I had no idea.

love and pepper jack,
Tia
Smoke and mirrors.